Cindy Lopez: Welcome. My name is Cindy Lopez, the host of thisCHC podcast, Voices of Compassion. We hope you find a little courage, feel connected and experience compassion every time you listen. 

What does it actually feel like to watch your child become more fully themselves and realize that your child’s journey may ask you to grow alongside them? We sit down with parent and REEL co-founder Callie Turk, a mom who gets it in her bones. She’s not a researcher or clinician, she’s a parent who has lived it, the sleepless nights, the fear of getting it wrong, and the profound, unexpected joy of watching her daughter thrive. She opens up about raising her transgender daughter, what the early days really looked like, how her own assumptions were quietly dismantled, and what she wishes someone had told her when her family was just finding its footing. She talks honestly about the moments that changed her and why creating a family atmosphere where her daughter feels completely safe and seen has become such a meaningful part of her life. So this is a conversation about love in action. It’s messy learning and fiercely committed love. It’s also about finding your people, setting aside the noise, and trusting your kid. If you’re a parent trying to figure out how to show up for your child or if you’ve ever felt alone on this road, this one’s for you.

So, Callie, thank you so much for joining us today and for your willingness just to share your story about you and your journey with your family. So, before we just dive into our conversation, I’d love it if you could take a minute to tell our listeners a little bit more about you.

Callie Turk: Cindy, it’s always such an honor and a privilege to get to spend time with you and to do anything to support the Children’s Health Council community. So thank you so much for having me. So, I am the co-founder and board chair of a nonprofit called REEL that is based in Silicon Valley and supports families of neurodivergent and twice exceptional students and also works with educators to help these students be able to thrive in school. And I came to this work because of my three children, and I have three now young adult children. And I spoke to each of them before recording this to make sure that I was honoring who they are as individuals and their own privacy concerns, which were few, but still, I wanted to be sure to have their permission before we spoke. Each of them is having their own journey through life, through neurodiversity, through their understanding of their identities in the LGBTQ+ community. And I’m really grateful for the time to reflect on my experience being parents of these three awesome young people.

Cindy Lopez: And we’re so glad that you’re here.

So Callie, what has been your journey with your child, especially as we think about the trans piece, like how did it start?

Callie Turk: Well, it really started in the car when she was an eighth-grader. And I think as so often happens in those teenage years, it was easier for her to have a conversation with me when she didn’t have to look at me. You know, and the car conversations are so important or walking conversations, just those times. And she opened up to me about feeling that she was probably bisexual, and we didn’t even touch on gender at the time. But that was the first time she gave me a clue about what she was thinking in her own mind about her experience. 

And I remember just wanting to be so supportive of her, but feeling very fearful on the inside because I had been studying cognitive diversity in education. I started working on an EdD in that a couple years later, but I had been looking at this field, and I knew what the statistics said, and I knew that it was going to be a tougher road. And I actually have a nephew, adult nephew, who has ADHD, and I saw the way my family navigated that, and they really leaned heavily into those negative statistics. And I think sometimes what you believe becomes your expectation, and then that is what the child perceives. So, I worked really hard to not put any of that onto my child because I didn’t want her to see my fear, and I just wanted her to feel very supported. Then flash forward to the middle of her junior year in high school, and she came out to my husband and me as non-binary, and then later as a trans woman.

So, it’s a journey that took many years and had a lot of twists and turns, and it’s still ongoing. I think this is something that you learn when you dive into the world of gender identity, is that it doesn’t always end and because that’s the way life is, you know? I think often as parents, we think they’ll be 18 or they’ll be 20, and then we release them to the world, but parenting is forever.

Cindy Lopez: Yes. Yes. I wonder, if there is something that you wish you had known at that point, or even wished you kind of had permission to feel?

Callie Turk: That’s a great question. I think what would have been really helpful to know along the way was how joyful the journey could be. I don’t think that gets talked about enough. You know, all the really wonderful people you’re going to meet along the way and how important being joyful is even if the rest of the world is giving you signals that you shouldn’t be joyful or that there’s so much to be afraid of, but I do think this is something we think a lot about at REEL too with our neurodivergent kids is like the news can feel so heavy when you first get a diagnosis or you learn something about your child and yet it doesn’t have to be so dark and gloomy, and I was really struck by—there was a teacher at the CHC Breakfast who spoke.

Cindy Lopez: That was Heather. Yeah.

Heather Thomas, yeah.

Callie Turk: Heather Thomas.

I just have really carried something she said with me ever since which I’ve said it many times and attributed to her is that learning these things about your child, “It’s not a label it’s a roadmap.” And I feel like if we can put more joyful stops in the roadmap along the way it can really help in those early days when you are feeling all that sense of concern and dread, even in the world we face today about what is going to happen to your child.

Cindy Lopez: Right. And I wonder too, like, how do you think your child was thinking about it at the time? On her part, was there a sense of fear or anticipating what might be really hard, or was it more open?

Callie Turk: I suspect she had all of those emotions and more. I suspect there was fear in coming out to her parents because she had been playing the part of a boy really well. And, you know, she probably just didn’t know what to expect, but I also think she trusted us to respond well. But how could you not have some fear, especially when you have a close relationship with your parents that you might be telling them something that’s going to be hard for them to hear or disappointing to them? And so I’m sure that was that. 

But I’m also sure there was a sense of relief about being able to be honest about who she was because she had been exploring it herself for probably several months or years even, and she’d been having an internal experience her whole life that she didn’t understand that was starting to make sense to her. And so I think there’s probably also that just great relief to not be holding that all on your own anymore, you know. And then I think she must have been nervous about coming out at school or, you know, she chose to wear dresses to prom. I think that took a lot of bravery, and I know there were times that wasn’t easy, and I know she had some panic in those situations sometimes. So, I think it was always a very mixed bag trying to become who she really is and letting the world see that.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah. Did you say that was middle school?

Callie Turk: So middle school was when she came out as bisexual, she was thinking, that’s what she was thinking. And I think that’s the language she had at that age for saying, “There’s something different going on for me, and I need to tell you there is something different, and this is what I think it is right now.”

Cindy Lopez: Right. So, I mean, you have noted, there were some things that went through your mind, like all of the statistics, kind of the scarier stuff about what this might mean for your child, and you want to protect them. And I think that many parents also describe a kind of grief when their child comes out. It’s not unlike a child who gets a diagnosis of ADHD or whatever, that there’s this mourning perhaps of the future they had imagined for their child is going to be different. Was there anything like that that you went through?

Callie Turk: So, I think we have to be really careful when we talk about this and when we use language like grief and mourning because now that I’m further into like understanding the trans experience, I think we want to be really cautious because it can be very hurtful for trans people because it’s not like they’re not there. They just are expressing their identity of who they’ve always been in a new way, and so I think I’d like to just note that before I say anything else.

I think there’s some overlapping experiences that some people might call grief, which are you as parents tend to build up a set of expectations, like you said. And so, yes, you have to work through a lot of changing those expectations somewhat or just re-envisioning what the future may look like. And then also, I would say if I experienced any sadness or grief, it was that I wasn’t there for my child the way she needed me to be. Like, this was an experience she had been having her whole life, and I didn’t know that, and I wasn’t supporting that. And she would say there was no way I could know it, so she has given me a lot of grace. But that hasn’t always made me feel better about grieving the mother I wish I had been for her. So, I think that’s the way I have seen it. 

I do think about this a lot now when I talk to families of younger kids, which is, okay, I’m not saying we shouldn’t have expectations of our kids like, do your best at school or join a team or be involved in the world, right? But what I am saying is being more maybe Buddhist about how we project expectations of a future life onto our children. It’s not our life. It’s their life. And, so I think that’s an important thing I wish that we told parents more is to recognize their children are individuals. You don’t really always know what direction they’re going to head, and try not to get too wrapped up in your own dreams, but walk every day with your child and support them. So, I would say that is the way I would advise people now is to have less of this future orientation with specifics because you don’t always know what journey you’re going to be on, and if you’re wanting to be with your child throughout their lives, you just need to walk with them in their journey.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah, and full disclosure, Callie and I have known each other for a long time, and I have had the privilege of seeing you walk through this journey in the past probably 10-ish years, and Callie, you are just an amazing mom, and the way that you are so open about what’s going on with your kids and open to your own learning about that is really exceptional. 

And I say this a lot on the podcast, but it comes up over and over again as I talk with our own clinicians even about kids and parenting, and there’s always this concept of be curious and listen, and I think that applies across the board, no matter what it is. And as you have been talking about being open to where your child is going and their trajectory, it may be different than what you’ve pictured for them, but be open about that and be curious. Like, “Hey, I’ve noticed you’ve been spending a lot of time, drawing or painting. Like, that’s really interesting. What about that is really fulfilling to you?

So, I think being curious and listening, and I think that’s part of what you’re pointing to as you just talked about being open and what you project on your kids or think for them may not be where they end up, and that’s all good.

Callie Turk: I meant to say too is I understand for sure where the trans community and trans allies are coming from in terms of not thinking in terms of grief because that seems, very serious or not acknowledging that we still have this loved one in our lives, and now they can actually show up more completely to us. Isn’t that amazing? At the same time, I think you are going through a change in the way you perceive things and, you know, our brains are wired to predict things based on past. And so you’re having to rewire a lot of parts of your brain. And that has, I think, somatic implications. And so if you are in touch with, like, what your body needs to process that, sometimes that may look like grief because maybe you do just need to go cry, and I would say this came up when I took my daughter prom dress shopping. I mean, I was so happy to support her and to do that with her, and it felt so different to me from what we’d been doing that I think my brain was trying to process that. And then I dropped her off at home, and we were so happy, didn’t we get the great dress? And then I went to my friend’s yard to cry in her backyard. Not because I was grieving something, but because I was just like, “Wow, this is a change, and I’m having to relearn some things, and this is how my body is feeling it right now.” And I do think parents need to find those safe spaces that their children are not part of to be able to work through as they’re rewiring their brain and their expectations. And that will come out in your body, and you need to honor that, just doing it from a place of, like, “Oh, I’m changing and I’m growing,” and that can be hard.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah. Yeah. There might be too a difference between how you’re showing up for your child and how you’re processing and where you’re processing. And to your point, you just indicated, find a safe space to do that that’s perhaps not in front of your child so they don’t perceive that as, “My mom is really having a hard time dealing with this.” So, I think that’s also good advice for parents on many fronts, like not just thinking about kids and identity, and trans, but thinking about how we support our kids when it’s different from what we’ve pictured.

Callie Turk: Yeah, and I think what’s interesting about that, as you’re saying it, is I want to temper it a little bit. Like, in certain areas, and things around identity, I do think that’s super important. But it is also important for our kids to know we do struggle sometimes with things, and then talk about how we’re working through it so that they can see that role modeling. Like, a lot of times these things aren’t visible to kids unless we talk about what we’re doing, what we’re seeing, what’s challenging us, and how we’re addressing it. Just not about their identity, right? Not about things related to their identity. It could be a relationship situation you have with someone else or something that’s happening at work, in your work environment, you know. So, I think we do need to try to protect our kids from the hard stuff in life. But if it’s related to their identity, I would try to find other spaces to work through that and know that that’s valid because your role as a parent is to, yes, create that psychologically safe space.

Mike Navarrete: CHC’s Voices of Compassion podcast is made possible by the generosity of people like you. To learn more about supporting CHC, go to chconline.org/donate. Also make sure to follow us on social media for more inspiring and educational content from CHC.

Cindy Lopez: Let’s pivot to talk about mental health for a minute because that seems to be an important aspect of this journey. How did that play into the journey? Were you ever concerned about the mental health of your child? Research consistently shows that parental acceptance is one of the strongest protective factors against depression, anxiety, suicide risk in transgender youth. So, how did that mental health piece play out in this?

Callie Turk: I’m going to speak first a little more broadly, and then I’ll talk to our experience because I do want to acknowledge that this is a topic that is laden somewhat with, you know, your own family values, what your religious practices are, how you parent in general. Like, are you a permissive parent, authoritarian parent, authoritative parent, a connected parent, all these different parenting approaches that you could take. And I think we have to acknowledge that. Like, this is our experience and the way we have parented our kids, and this could get a lot more complex for families who are dealing with intersectional identities, too. The challenges of what you’re going to face parenting a child of color is going to be really different, the risks they’re going to face in the world.

Culturally, you may come from a culture that is just not accepting. So, you know, I want to just acknowledge all of that because I do think having a supportive parent is so critical and important, and I also understand when parents are trying to help a child navigate those cultural challenges that are differences that we maybe didn’t have as much of coming from more of the dominant culture in the United States. And I do want to say, there’s a lot of misinformation, I think, out in the world right now about the mental health issues that our trans kids face. I think people who don’t want to support trans kids want to say they have a mental health issue. But all the mental health professionals have removed that as being a mental health issue and recognized as with so many of our neurodivergent characteristics, these are not actually inherent problems for the person, but in the environment, that our environment is not supporting these kids and these youth, and so they face a lot of mental health issues because of that. So, I think that correlation and causation needs to be better understood, and it is being researched all the time, but in my experience, it doesn’t really start with a mental health issue. The mental health issues come from other people not accepting or that fear that you are not safe in your own community.

Like my daughter, who did have a lot of mental health issues on her journey, the amount of internalized shame that she had developed over the years, recognizing that internally she was different than what she was projecting to the world. And that just builds up a lot of scar tissue that then has to be worked through. And she did face a lot of mental health issues because of that as she was figuring out how to come out and how to be honest about who she is and sort through all the ways she had tried to compensate in her own mind for feeling different in the world. And, she did have to take a break from college to work on that, and I’m actually super grateful that she did, that she took the time to do that, and that we had the resources to support her in that work. She’s an incredibly mature young woman now who really knows herself, and that’s been a real blessing. But it was years of really big struggle with her mental health, especially around anxiety and depression. So, I think because there’s an overlap between neurodivergence and trans identity, which is still being understood, I think there’s a lot of research going on about why that may be, what the mechanisms physiologically might be, or if it’s being kind of more open to difference. You know, some of the social anxiety that comes with neurodivergence also is something we see a lot in our trans kids. So, I do think there are mental health concerns, and that’s why having the supports in place and having a loving environment and a safe space they can always come back to is so critical.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah. And I know from the years of knowing you that you being the mom that you are, you kind of dove into, how can I learn more? What does the research say? And also finding the right resources, finding the best resources. And you have talked about that from time to time at different points on that journey, you kind of hit some crisis points. And so, what I remember you talking about is just it was a scramble to find the resources and identify the resources that you needed to really support your child well. Is there anything that you want to say about that?

Callie Turk: Sure, yeah, I mean, I have a couple things I’d say about finding resources, you know, and- it’s sort of the same message I give a lot about autism, which is listen to the people who are living it. So, the very first step should be to join some online groups with trans people in them, or that are trans-led, and really listen to their stories and be part of the community because I think it can be so misunderstood if you just listen to what’s in the news. And even within, like, what’s covered in the news, sometimes the resources are not unbiased. I mean, there definitely has been pushback on a major publication in a very large northeastern city about their trans coverage – a publication that is generally considered fairly left-leaning, but they have interviewed trans leaders and then misrepresented what they’ve said. So, you have to be really cautious, and I think to listen to trans people themselves, just like we say always listen to an autistic person first, is really important.

I also found reading memoirs of trans people was really helpful. I think you just want to really embed yourself in their stories. Dr. Devon Price I think is really a great person to listen to and read all of their books and just the things that they’re writing, I think either in Substack or Medium. Just very powerful pieces and from a person who is a trained psychologist. You know, so I think that’s a very powerful voice to listen to. I think I did get out and try to really learn about the science because I have family who are very conservative, and so a lot of them were not supportive that we were choosing to be supportive of our child. And it made me really want to understand more of the science, and I think it doesn’t take that much to get out and dig in and see that gender differences are something that 1% of the population experiences, as we’d expect in any population. So, I think those were really valuable resources. And then, the trans parent community, there are quite a few private communities, but if you know anyone in your community who is a trans parent, they will probably already be tapped into those communities and can get you tapped into them. They’re very careful now because very concerned about safety and privacy and all of that. So, those are a few things on the trans piece.

On the crisis piece, that is really scary, and I think it’s something at REEL we’re really recognizing that there is not a really good go-to resource that says what do I do when my child is in crisis. And we’re actually working with Joanna Lilley, who’s an education consultant and a colleague of hers who’s actually in the East Bay to write a guide about where do you look and what are the steps because you don’t know you need that until you’re in the middle of it. And then it’s so bifurcated. The information is everywhere. And so I think that will be hopefully a really great resource for families, if they end up in crisis. If they think they might be headed that way and just want to have a heads-up, if you have a teenager in Silicon Valley, then just always keep CHC in mind. You guys have a great IOP program. Embark is another one we hear really good things about that I think is out of El Camino Hospital, but also has locations in the South Bay. So just kind of knowing that those exist and keeping them in mind it can be really helpful. I think my biggest advice is just keep an eye out who are the other parents who you see being more open about their journey. They will be happy to talk to you if you start going down this path.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah. you mentioned family and family response. I’m thinking about that, and all that you’ve learned in this journey. What do you say to parents whose support for their child might be creating tension with a partner or a grandparent or a sibling who isn’t on board yet? How do you hold the line for your child while keeping your family somewhat intact?

Callie Turk: And my experience has been that I have a very supportive husband who’s been on the journey with me. I can only imagine what that would be like if we weren’t in partnership or if we were co-parenting and weren’t doing it together. So I think that’s a whole different hurdle I’m not sure I can speak to as well.

I can speak to how to think about this with grandparents or even, like, with aunts and uncles. It’s very complicated. I also think when you’re in trans communities, I think you get mixed messages. So I think when you’re in the trans communities and really getting the support you need, you hear a lot of messaging around you need to cut those people out. And then when you’re talking to the people who are not on board, you’re hearing them say, “Fox News will tell me that you’re going to cut me out.”

And so I think for us it was really just navigating things and seeing how willing they were to go along in the journey with us. And so on the one side, it’s definitely a stretch. You know? Like, I have a mother who’s a very evangelical Christian person, but she has really seen that we all need to love one another. And so she’s really worked hard to really be part of our lives and make the changes in name and pronouns and those sorts of things and that has been really beautiful, and I think my daughter feels so supported and loved. And then on the other side, we have a grandparent who just can’t make that change and really comes from a much more hard-line parenting perspective, which is, like, “It is your job as this child’s parents to keep them within these binaries that will keep them safe.” And, hearing a lot of messaging around, “It’s just a mental health problem. If you just hold the line, you know, this is going to go this other direction.” And I just don’t think that reflects reality. And we spent a lot of time with that grandparent trying to explain to them, “We’d rather have a living daughter than a dead son, quite frankly,” you know, and also, like, “We’re not giving up our relationship with our daughter. We love our daughter. She’s an amazing human being. We are going to affirm her, and we will be open to wherever her journey takes her.” I mean, so, that just was a bridge too far for that grandparent. 

And so we just have a lot more boundaries, and I think the boundaries just got set over time. They weren’t negotiated because there was no negotiating on that other piece. There was no negotiating, and once we realized there was no negotiating, there was no room to say, like, “Could you just use the name and pronouns?” Right? We just had to put up clear boundaries, both for our daughter and also, I think, for ourselves and our own mental health, and it’s sad. It’s sad. Like, that’s probably what you grieve more than anything is that relationship, that that person could not just come along with us. And I’m very sad for them because, we’ve had so many beautiful moments and so much joy. Like, this is a great life that we’re living, and we’re meeting so many neat people. And, like, it’s so sad that people are cutting themselves off from having that joy together, and I just don’t think there’s an easy answer except we were always very clear our boundary was our daughter and her mental health and her psychological safety, and if we could manage to continue to have a relationship, then we would try. And when it became clearer how hard that was going to be, we just had to put up our own boundaries and it’s not that we don’t have any contact, but it’s just very different. It’s just very different, and it’s not what I would have expected, and that does make me sad.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah. Yeah.

Callie Turk: But I’m also very clear on where that sadness lies. It is not with my daughter.

Cindy Lopez: Right. Right. It’s about that relationship that has changed so much with the grandparents.

So, Callie, here in our community, in Palo Alto, we’ve experienced death by suicide of some of our teens, and the last several have actually been students who are LGBTQ+. And, it’s heartbreaking to see all that happening and that over the years it has happened, death by suicide, not necessarily LGBTQ+ community, but just that death by suicide of our teens. I’m just wondering if you have any comments or thoughts around that.

Callie Turk: I have a lot of comments and thoughts about that, and I’m going to try to limit myself kind of within the topic that we’re discussing now, but I would say I’ve met parents of these kids, and these kids have many identities, right, LGBTQ+ is just one of them. But I think that as a community, we’re not really reckoning with how we are treating children throughout their experiences, I would say. And then the suicides get blamed on pressure or the parents, and this is not the case. And I feel like what we are doing is adding insult to injury to these families that have experienced the worst thing they could imagine. I don’t know one of these families that wasn’t heavily invested in their child’s well-being and their child’s mental health and their children as who they were. And so I think the more we try to just simplify what those experiences are and put the blame on the parents, it’s just a way for parents to cope themselves in thinking, “Well, I’m not that parent.”

But you’re really hurting these families, and I wish people would be more considerate about that. And then I do think we have to understand that our trans kids are living in times where many bad things happen every day to trans people in our country, and they are absorbing that. And then if in their own communities they don’t feel safe because we are allowing bullying behaviors to happen in our schools and not addressing those, I don’t know what people expect. And I think we really need to understand the heart of that, that bullying and the hopelessness, and we need to really be paying really good attention to these kids who we know are suffering. I mean, these most recent kids, people knew what they were going through, and there wasn’t enough I think of a community of care and concern built around those children, their families were certainly working hard to do that. They had friends, they were involved in activities, those people were supporting them. But the broader community is devolving a bit, and our other kids are getting messages from the leaders in our country that it’s okay to behave badly towards kids who are different and towards trans kids in particular, and that’s confusing. It’s got to be confusing for our young people who are getting those messages, and they are not having people talk about other ways of being in community together. Like, we just have to address that. And it’s a little bit like the double empathy problem which comes up in autism, which is like if communication is breaking down between an autistic person and a neurodivergent person, whose responsibility is that, right? Like, it’s both people’s responsibility. Like, they have to figure out how to talk to one another. It’s a similar thing where we are all responsible for each other, and we need to teach not just other queer kids how to protect one another. We need to teach everyone how to protect one another, and that’s just not happening. And it’s not just in Palo Alto, it’s something we see across the country. But it shouldn’t surprise anyone either that more trans kids are deciding to take their own lives as a way to stop the pain and suffering that they’re feeling and the hopelessness that they’re feeling because that is what our country is allowing to happen right now. So, until more people are willing to stand up for trans rights and for trans people and say, “No, everyone deserves dignity and respect.”

Cindy Lopez: It’s definitely a point of conversation or should be a point of conversation and as we consider treating people with dignity and respect, I think that’s where it starts, no matter how different they are from you or your own experience. And that I think is what we’re trying to teach our kids. And it’s not an easy thing. As you said, families are supporting their kids, and kids have supported friends. So, it’s about what’s happening in the larger community as well.

Callie Turk: Yes, for sure. I mean, and I know because I know some of these kids that a lot of it was the bullying behaviors that were not always so evident, but we need to believe these kids when they come and talk to us and tell us what is happening to them. And we need for them to feel connected to at least one adult, if not more, on a campus that they can confide in. And I think we’re not always aware of that, and then we need to take them seriously when they bring things up.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah. I think all kids should have an ally, that is an adult in their sphere who can come alongside them. And that, again, I mean, we keep saying this over and over in our conversation, it’s not only about trans kids or LGBTQ+ community, it’s about our kids in general, families in general, and how we perceive differences among each other.

Callie Turk: For sure. And I also think there’s an exercise that I think comes from Challenge Success, although it may have come from someone before them, but about the dot exercise, where you sit down and intentionally go through every student in your community, and this would be hard to do in a community of two thousand kids, but it’s still possibly important to do. You could do it by grade level team. You could do something to break that down where you make sure that you know that every child is connected to a person. And that connection can’t just be like, “Oh, we say hi in the hall.” And I think that is a great exercise for school communities to do.

Cindy Lopez: Just want to thank you for your openness and your vulnerability in sharing your story with us and your journey with us. And as we close, if a parent is listening to this episode, maybe they’re not ready to tell anyone where they are emotionally, what’s the one thing you might want them to hear?

Callie Turk: I think that it’s really important not to walk through this alone and that there are people out there who are waiting to welcome you in. So whether it’s what I said before, which is looking around your community and seeing who are the parents who are open about their experiences, or finding a good book where you can read about parent experiences, or joining an online community where you can even just be a lurker, just don’t do it alone.

Cindy Lopez: Well, thank you, Callie, really appreciate you sharing with us today and insights and just expertise too as you go on your journey and to our listeners, thank you for joining us today as well.

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