Cindy Lopez: Welcome. My name is Cindy Lopez, the host of this CHC podcast, Voices of Compassion. We hope you find a little courage, feel connected and experience compassion every time you listen.

Grief is a rollercoaster, and for children, the ride can be unpredictable. In this heartfelt episode, CHC experts, Karly Crockett and Rachel O’Harra explore how kids experience loss within the family system and why grief should be shared, not silent. They unpack how grief shows up at different developmental stages from toddlers to teens, and share real examples of what to say and what to avoid when talking to kids about death and loss. You’ll learn how to support children through the emotions that ebb and flow from confusion to anger, to moments of calm and how your own grief as a caregiver can shape theirs. Because when parents and caregivers make space for a child’s feelings, they build connection, resilience, and hope that really lasts.

We’re so thankful, Karly and Rachel, that you’re joining us today to talk about this topic of grieving kids. It’s one that we haven’t covered before and I think the conversation will be really good and really helpful to our listeners before we dive into that conversation, would you just take a minute to tell our listeners a little bit more about yourselves?

Karly Crockett, LCSW: My name’s Karly. I am a licensed clinical social worker. I work in the Medi-Cal Clinic primarily here at CHC. I’ve been here for over eight years, and I love CHC and the work that I do here.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Hi, my name is Rachel O’Harra. I’m a LMFT, licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, here at CHC. Work together with Karly on the same team and, oh, I’ve lost count how many years I’ve been here, but close to Karly. I think about eight years.

Karly Crockett, LCSW: A little bit more.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Maybe a little bit more…

Karly Crockett, LCSW: You’re one of my mentors. Yes.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: I think it’s gonna be nine. Yeah. In November.

Cindy Lopez: Wow. Well, thank you so much for the work that you do at CHC and the clients that you care for and connect with. Today, as we talk about grieving kids, we’re going to just access your expertise and experience as you’ve had those many, probably hundreds, of conversations with kids and families. So, as we get started, what’s one thing that you wish every parent or caregiver knew about how children experience grief?

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Yeah, so something I came across recently in my practice and working with families in processing grief is this idea of grief as a rollercoaster. And I really like that metaphor and that image, that grief is a journey that can change day-to-day or even moment-to-moment. There’s a lot of twists and turns. It can be unsettling at times, and we go through a lot of different emotions and sometimes it feels like it’s not linear. There’s different ups and downs and we can feel lost at times or overwhelmed. And so I like that idea in working with kids and caregivers and families that it’s all a part of the journey in processing and working through grief. And so there’s not set stages. There’s different common feelings or themes we might see, but it comes up differently for every person, even if they’ve experienced the same event that they’re grieving over. It can be such a unique experience for each person.

Cindy Lopez: So, Rachel, as you were talking, it makes total sense to me that everyone experiences grief differently, but there’s also that process that I think theoretically we all go through as we process grief, like denial, anger, all of that. Does that still play a part in this?

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Yeah, so the idea with the rollercoaster is to kind of roll with it. The more we try to fight it or think, I shouldn’t feel this way or I shouldn’t think this way, that really can be detrimental to the process of grief and especially for children. So, it’s the idea of trying not to put it in a box, but being open to what might come, and there could be some denial, anger, there could be sadness, confusion, anxiety for kids. And it might not come in the order you expect it to. Some kids might have a big reaction initially. Some might suppress some of those emotions in weeks or months later, even a year later. They’re coming to terms with it. And I don’t necessarily see that as a regression. If we can get this idea of grief as a rollercoaster as that it can come up in different phases of their life, especially depending on who or what was lost.

Cindy Lopez: So, my dad died last year and we’re over a year out and there are moments when that just kind of all comes flooding back. So, it’s not like a one and done kind of thing. It seems like it continues over time, and it can catch you unexpected, and I’m imagining that is similar with kids.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Yeah. I like that idea because it just acknowledges that grief is messy.

Karly Crockett, LCSW: I’ll add in here, to this idea of grief as a rollercoaster when thinking about something I wish a caregiver would know about children experiencing grief. Children live in a family system and so as they’re on their rollercoaster of grief, it’s very likely that grief is showing up in this family system affecting the caregivers and the siblings and/or the family members are also on their own rollercoasters if it’s a shared grief or loss. And so that just adds to the complexity and the messiness. And so just like having that framework when your family or your child experiences a loss to recognize that it is going to pull in a lot of different heartstrings and moments as individuals within the family and then as a family together that is expected and to just kind of prepare for the unexpected or the unknown of how your family will experience it.

Cindy Lopez: And as I noted, as an adult, even like, I still am processing some grief in my dad’s death. I’m wondering, as an adult, like how is children’s grief different from adults?

Karly Crockett, LCSW: As Rachel and I were preparing for this podcast, we were sitting with that question wanting to give you this is what it looks like for kids, and this is what it looks like for adults list. And coming back to this theme of like, grief is messy and grief as a rollercoaster, we realized it’s an individualized experience for each person. And while there can be some themes and trends based on what we were saying earlier about different emotions often experienced in grief, and similarly maybe some behaviors or presentations that are more common in different developmental stages to categorize grief being one way for kids and adults, kind of oversimplifies the nuance of each person’s loss and the experience they’re having today in regards to that loss. So, it’s a human experience, not so much a kid or adult specific reflection of the experience.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Yeah, there’s no right or wrong way to grieve, that’s what I tell families, and it’s really important to hold that space for kids and for families to be able to talk about grief. Sometimes it can feel taboo or depending on the culture of the family system, hard to sit and talk about it. We really want to humanize the experience, it’s something we’ll all go through at different times of our life and there’s not a right or wrong way to do it. I think as long as you’re able to validate their feelings and experience and find healthy outlets to cope because it can be really challenging and trying time going through a big loss and the child might seem fine one moment and really upset in another and very sad or withdrawn at times. And then times maybe they’re acting out or seeking connection. And so again, the whole idea of the rollercoaster of grief and it might seem different day-to-day, that can be challenging as a parent or a caregiver when you’re trying to navigate your own grief. And how do I show up and be present for my child too? And I think that’s where it helps to really pull on your village or community to surround the caregiver and the child. It’s a parallel process, so I think the parent is getting support, or caregiver, in coping with the grief that will translate into them being able to be present and support the child with their experience.

Cindy Lopez: As you’re both talking, and in my experience in working with kids in education, we know that all behavior is communication of some form. And so, if your child is experiencing grief, they may not be coming to you saying, I am sad or I feel lonely. They might be communicating to you in different ways through some things that you might observe in their behavior. So, Karly and Rachel, I’m thinking about what grief might look like at different developmental stages, especially as we think about what we’re seeing on the outside versus what they’re able to communicate verbally. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: I think we see some signs from early on, even toddlers grieve. They might not understand really what’s happening, but they’re picking up on the vibe and that something has shifted right in the family and they’re very attuned to their caregiver’s emotional state. And so in a toddler, in a young child, it could show up as they might be crying more, having more tantrums, more clingy, wanting to be with the caregiver more. There can be changes in sleep, appetite. They might seem more anxious, more separation anxiety can present and really what can help, providing some more nurturance and in that age, you know, some physical comfort. They might need to be held more, snuggled more, supported with their daily routines, try to have some sense of normalcy or consistency if possible. And then just really short, truthful statements about what happened.

And for like the toddler and preschool age, I really like this episode from the show, Daniel the Tiger, where his pet fish dies and the parents do a really good job of explaining it – very developmentally appropriate way, concrete way for the child to understand and giving some strategies on how he can cope when he feels sad. And he also gets angry and he’s confused about what happened to his pet fish. And I think it’s based on a Mr. Rogers episode originally, which is also great that has the theme of the pet fish passing away. But I think those can be some helpful tools. 

Sesame Street also does a great episode on supporting the community and one of them is around grief. And so that’s good for like the toddler and preschool age, and how do we talk about these topics, right? What does it look like? And similar in preschool age kids, we would expect them to have some regression. So, they might do some baby talk or act out in a way you haven’t seen in a while. And they might be worried about safety, like, am I going to get really sick? Or is something going to happen to my parents, or they might be scared that something else will change or happen. There could be some more fear. So, you know, again talking to them and you might have to answer the same questions over and over again and supporting them through play. Children at that age, they process a lot through play, so their play themes might include death or grief or loss, and sometimes parents are alarmed by that, but that’s the way children make sense of the world and their experiences. So, it might come through with puppet play or doll play or acting things out with their action figures or toys. And I think that’s a healthy outlet. So, allowing that and asking questions and being curious, reading books about it too. There are several children’s books. There’s one called The Invisible String, and then they do the invisible leash for loss of a pet. That’s a great way to bring up these topics with the younger children too and help them make sense of it. Because it could be their first time going through something like this and finding the right words or examples and storytelling is really helpful for kids and helps them feel validated in what they’re going through. It might give them the words to say, yeah, I felt that way too, or, you know, that’s something I was worried about. That’s for the younger kids. Uh, I’ll let Karly talk a little bit more about as they enter elementary age.

Karly Crockett, LCSW: Yeah, and I think there’s some patterns across the ages and stages depending on the child’s presentation and their response to grief. Rachel already mentioned some changes in sleep and appetite. I think that can extend through adulthood. And similarly we started with like the baby crying and being clingy, which might be a form of showing sadness or anxiety, and as they get older, it may come out in different ways, but it’s maybe reflecting the same emotion. So, in elementary age kids you might see more anger and fighting. You might also see that same regression to more childlike behavior. And then maybe some more subtle changes in terms of attention, challenges, being more distracted or daydreaming, not being able to focus or complete their work. Kind of closing off to themselves, their school, their family. And so for families who have children of elementary aged children, helping them by giving more information in your answers. So, as they keep growing, you’re going to give more detail and provide a deeper level of complexity in talking about grief and loss that meets where your kid can understand and just keep engaging with you on the topic. Being as clear and accurate as possible, providing opportunities for the child to express themselves, maybe through art, journaling, music, having different physical outlets if they enjoy sports or being outside playing games. And then also giving them a lot of choices, experiencing grief can feel really disempowering because it can come out of nowhere, be unexpected and there’s no sense of control in that experience. So, giving children a chance to have some agency and empower them in their life to feel like, okay, the world is not a completely unpredictable scary place, can help ease some of the anxiety or tension they feel.

And then lastly, for like middle and high school age youth, we might see more versions of those externalized behaviors of argumentative, anger outbursts could get bigger; pushing limits and rules, being moody, some risk taking behaviors, as well as more of the quieter withdrawal, fatigue, difficulties concentrating. And so as caregivers, if you’re able to accept and expect these different swings and emotion and behavior and encouraging them to express themselves again across the age range, giving them outlets, giving them options of ways they can communicate with you and let out within themselves those feelings as well as recognize that with intense emotions can come different physical sensations or symptoms. So, headaches, stomachaches, more aches and pains, as well as continue to provide some flexibility with daily tasks and their choices within what’s developmentally appropriate for them.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: One thing that I think is important to consider across all developmental stages when you’re supporting a child with grief is how to include them in rituals around death and that can look different across cultures and family. And I think it’s helpful, developmentally appropriate to include them and being part of how to say goodbye, whether that’s writing a goodbye letter, creating a memory box, a memory book, going through old photos and telling stories, sending a message up to the sky (I’ve had kids release messages in balloons), or sending a message up to sea, creating a time capsule to capture memories they want to remember and come back to in years to come. And in some cultures they also celebrate, Diá de los Muertos or Day of the Dead and creating an altar that has the person who’s passed favorite foods or pictures or items that they remember and celebrating their life. And even if they can have a part in the celebration or life or memorial, that’s something the family chooses to do. I’ve had some children where that can be helpful if there’s something they want to share or plan or a way to connect with their community and family. And so I think that’s important across all the stages of how do we help the child be a part of that. 

Mike Navarrete: CHC’s Voices of Compassion podcast is made possible by the generosity of people like you. To learn more about supporting CHC, go to chconline.org/donate. Also make sure to follow us on social media for more inspiring and educational content from CHC.

Cindy Lopez: You mentioned involving the child in rituals and I think about things like memorial services or funerals. So, I think about those things. And I wonder, is it appropriate to include kids in those kinds of rituals that we have? And I imagine it looks different in different cultures, right, but do you have any advice for our listeners on that front?

Karly Crockett, LCSW: Yes, I would think about what we were saying earlier about grief as a rollercoaster and grief in the family system. And the answer would be it depends on your child and your caregiving capacity and your family system. Like, would going to this event be meaningful or something that your family can support your child with or based on how your child’s recently been experiencing grief, does it seem like just too much? And where are they at in their readiness to be present in that type of event because it’s often grief is very present in making the loss concrete. And making it concrete can be very helpful. So, I would say encourage families as they’re ready or feel like they could, I think it can be helpful for the child to go to those types of events and gather and see, like, this is real. This is what this looks like. These are the other people who know this loved one. I’m not alone in this. Like, all the things that we as adults may benefit from and those types of events. I think kids can receive their version of those benefits. 

And then coming to an event, should you as a caregiver, bring your child, coming prepared with different outlets, resources, activities to help soothe and care for your child, knowing they may have a sudden dip in their rollercoaster, or you might. And so what’s your plan to support your child when you’re having a real intense emotion? So, calling on your network to say maybe grandma can hang out with kiddo for a bit while I go take a deep breath.

Cindy Lopez: And you’ve both noted in your comments around giving the child space to be, to express their grief in whatever way it’s coming out and through the different developmental stages what that might look like. What do you think are some of the most helpful things that parents or caregivers can actually say to a grieving child?

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Yeah, with the younger kids, as we had mentioned before, it’s helpful to say things that are very short and concrete and truthful. Sometimes as adults we use euphemisms and we say, “We lost this person,” or, “They’ve passed, they’re no longer with us.” And that can be confusing for a young child. “Does that mean they’ll come back? Does that mean, you know, there’s a chance they’re still around? They’re just not living here anymore, but they’re somewhere else and I can go visit?” And so I think there needs to be some support and education around understanding what alive versus dead is and some concrete terms. And some phrases can be more talking about things that they might know, you know, “Grandpa’s heart stopped beating today. He died. He’s no longer with us, and he’s no longer alive.” And they might ask, “What’s death, what’s alive?” And you can talk about how things have different seasons and sometimes that’s helpful for some kids to talk about. If they’ve noticed things in nature and how this is the cycles in life, but I think trying to be as concrete as possible that can help them. And, with older children they understand the figurative speech, they might still have questions about what happened and kind of using your best judgment of what is appropriate to share and understanding that they’re asking because they might be curious or trying to make sense or understand it themselves. And so, I think that it’s helpful to understand and explain to younger kids the permanence of death and with older kids, hold space for more questions. And if you’re not able to answer it in the moment, it’s hard: “I have a lot of feelings and I need some time to think about it,” and that’s okay too.

Cindy Lopez: I was actually thinking about that because even a child who is not experiencing that loss and grief themselves might be seeing it in others and thinking, “What happened?” or, “Why is my friend being so mad all the time?” and so how can caregivers respond when a child asks maybe some difficult questions about death?

Karly Crockett, LCSW: Yeah, it is really difficult to field those questions, especially when they are unexpected and may evoke an emotion in you as the caregiver. And when possible, you know the example you just gave, Cindy, we may not know the peer’s story to be able to help explain to our child, and if we do know inklings of it, we can be again, direct and clear while also recognizing that the peer might not want to talk about it. So, you want to balance, like giving your child enough to understand like they’re having a really hard time, something happened in their family or maybe if you know something more specific and the peer’s ready to talk about it. So, again, the answer really does depend on the situation because we want to respect both your child’s need for information as well as the peer’s need for privacy or readiness to share. And in general, when your child’s asking questions, it demonstrates that they’re ready to hear part of an answer. And so, start with something direct and small and see how they take it in and if maybe they just move on, or “What’s for dinner?” Okay, that’s all they needed for today. Or maybe they’re like, “Well, what does that mean?” Like, okay, so how can I give them a little bit more? But to, again, continue matching where my child’s at without trying to overwhelm them, but also giving them enough direct and clear information to fill in some of their holes so that they don’t fill it in, like make a story up for themselves to try and make sense. Children often will put themselves in the story and take blame or ownership of something that they have no involvement in. And so it’s really helpful for those reasons, for caregivers to provide a direct answer so the child doesn’t keep trying to come up with the answer themselves.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Yeah. And young kids might, like Karly was saying, insert themselves in the story. They might have this fear, worry that, “Does that mean I’m going to die? Or does that mean you’re going to die?” Or their parent? And there could be some fear around death or even like getting older. And so I think as much as we can provide information that’s developmentally appropriate to the kids, and then also reassure them that they’re loved, they’re cared for, it wasn’t their fault. They’re safe and healthy at this time, that the family’s there to support them. I think that’s really important. Kids need a lot of reassurance during that time when they’re navigating uncharted territories, especially if it’s their first loss. And I always encourage caregivers to leave the conversation open. We don’t want to shut it down, even if we don’t have an answer or we feel overcome by our own grief and are unable to talk about it in more detail at that moment, at least let the child know, “I’m so glad you’re coming to me with this,” or, “That’s a really good question. This is something I want you to be able to talk to me about, and we’re going to work through this as a family.” Because grief can feel so isolating and the way you respond, the child might close off and suppress it, and that’s not healthy for processing the grief. So keep the conversation open.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah. I’m going to call them talk tracks. Do you have some specific ways you might describe what’s happening in a death? Because the death could happen in different ways. Like, if grandma dies, she was old and it’s maybe a little bit more expected, but does that talk track like between the caregiver and child?

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Well, sometimes if it was like a sudden tragic accident, I mean it might seem blunt or direct if you’re talking to an adult, but the child might actually need to hear it in some of those terms to really understand the permanency of what happened. So, you know, “Your aunt was in a car accident, her body was badly hurt, it couldn’t be fixed, and she died.” And just sit and see if the child has more questions or not. And like you said, with old age, grandparents, “Grandma got old, her body stopped working and she died.” And sometimes we can lean on others for support and how to find the words and it can be hard, but as direct as you can be with the younger kids. I think they really need it to be very literal and concrete, even if it feels a little blunt for you or scary to name it. They’re not going to understand the figurative language and the common phrases we use as adults. 

Cindy Lopez: Yeah.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: Yeah.

Karly Crockett, LCSW: And while you may not have these talk tracks sitting in front of you in your day-to-day life, I like that idea of that term, Cindy. And, thinking about resources that are available when going through difficult experiences like grief, to kind of refresh your memory because especially if you are in the throes on that rollercoaster as well, it may be hard to pull on some of the things you’ve learned. Because remembering some of the guidance or some of these go-to phrases when describing or defining death for your child can help give you a roadmap when it’s feeling intense or overwhelming. I think in those moments it can be easy to lean on previous patterns. And as a caregiver, if you haven’t navigated loss with your child before, it may feel really foreign to talk about it in this way. And you may lean towards things that feel easier like euphemism. And I know Rachel mentioned it earlier, and I just wanted to kind of reiterate the risk there of using those euphemisms is that your child can start to take it and make a different story out of it because they don’t quite know what it means that they got sick and died. And so then next time your child has a cold, “I’m sick. Oh no. Grandma was sick, she died. Am I about to die?” So, the ambiguity with euphemisms can feed into the anxiety around death. And so being able to review your talk tracks in preparation for a conversation to orient yourself in, why you’re going to try and say something that’s really uncomfortable and unpleasant and foreign as an adult to talk in this way.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah. It seems like it’s really important for the adult to just reassure the child that they’re safe and healthy and just because a person died could be in their life or associated with their life, it doesn’t mean that someone else is going to die or I’m going to die.

Karly Crockett, LCSW: I’m going to chime in there, Cindy, because I literally asked Rachel how do you walk this line between being extremely honest with your child that we all die, which means we could die tomorrow? And yet also instilling some hope, some confidence, some reassurance in the adults as caregivers and in life that you could die tomorrow. It’s unlikely because you’re four, but who knows? Four year olds do die. And so we landed on being reassuring and honest that the child is safe and healthy right now. They are loved. Everybody does die, and I hope that we live a long, long time. So, I don’t want to feed them something that’s blatantly untrue while also not being so true and direct that they’re like, “Okay, it’s tomorrow, when am I going die now?” It’s a fine line to walk.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah, totally. I’m so appreciative of this conversation today and for Karly and Rachel and sharing your expertise and experience and insights with us. As we close and wrap up this episode, maybe you could talk to our listeners like what’s one small step that a parent or caregiver could take today to better support their grieving child?

Karly Crockett, LCSW: I have a few thoughts, Cindy, in considering this takeaway question because in thinking about wrapping up this podcast, I really wanted to give the listeners this like present with a bow on it. Be like, this has been a really dark and gloomy episode. It’s so hard to talk about grief. Loss is so painful and it’s going to be okay and like, eventually it probably will, but I don’t know when, and who knows where your family’s at on the rollercoaster, if you’re on it right now. So, that kind of feels like a false message and a bit placating. So, the gift that you can give your child is the space for them to be who they are, where they’re at in their process. And today you can do that, whether or not they are navigating grief by seeing what feelings they’re having in their day-to-day life and practice giving them that space to express themselves. And some of the strategies we talked about today on the different developmental stages can apply to children who aren’t experiencing grief. And by using them on a daily basis, you’re not only building that coping skillset your child will need when they are grieving, but also you’re enhancing the relationship you have with them. Because they see, oh, my caregiver cares about how I feel. Oh, they see that I’m angry, but really I’m scared. And that will be a tool they’ll fall back on when they’re in the throes of grief.

Rachel O’Harra, LMFT: I think the gift, right, for the kid and the caregiver and the family, is all feelings are okay. Just having a space at the table for whatever you’re feeling in that rollercoaster journey. I think it’s really important to practice that self-compassion and give yourself and your child grace. And things are going to be challenging and unexpected and different for a while. And, grieving is a part of life. And so I always tell families it’s really important to spend the time you need on this journey. And in processing it, you’re supporting your child, not just in this stage, but how they’re going to cope with grief throughout their life. This won’t be the first and only time. 

And so supporting them now we’ll help them be better equipped on how to cope as adults. And sometimes I do some parent coaching sessions because the caregivers never had that space to grieve. And so when they see their child going through it, it takes them back, decades and their first losses and it all comes bubbling up to the surface. You know, grief comes in waves. And so how do we ride those waves? How do we build that resiliency and how do we have that mentality that we’re in this together and we’re a team and you have support. You don’t have to sail the storm of grief on your own. You have that support and seeking out professional support if needed. There’s a lot of great resources in the area. Kara does a lot of great grief groups and Bill Wilson Center for Dying, and there’s all types of supports for the caregivers and the children, and that’s okay too to give yourself that space to talk to someone if you’re finding that it’s a complicated journey and you need a little bit more support to get through it.

Cindy Lopez: I appreciate you both just telling the listeners like whatever way it happens, that grief is messy, the rollercoaster of grief, but to be concrete and real with your child is important at whatever level they’re at and to use terms like, grandma was older and her body stopped working and she died. I mean, important enough to say, and she died. So, I think that kind of advice is really good for our listeners, for me too. To our listeners, if something’s going on with your child and they’re experiencing grief, but it feels larger than it should be or it’s impacting them in bigger ways, please reach out to CHC, we have resources for you. You can contact our care team at [email protected]. You can also phone us at 650-688-3625. We have therapy for kids. We also, as Rachel mentioned, have parent coaching. So, there are resources for you if you are in this space. Thank you so much Rachel and Karly for sharing with us today and to our listeners for joining us.

Visit us online at podcasts.chconline.org. Make sure to subscribe to Voices of Compassion so you never miss an episode, and we’d love it if you’d leave us a rating and review. Have a question? Send us an email or a voice memo at [email protected]. We’re here for you when you need us.