Cindy Lopez: Welcome. My name is Cindy Lopez, the host of this CHC podcast, Voices of Compassion. We hope you find a little courage, feel connected and experience compassion every time you listen.

What does it take for students with learning differences to find their voice and advocate for their own needs? In this episode, we explore self-advocacy with CHC experts, Dr. Emily Hsu, and Dr. Yi-Hua Lin, as a learnable skill that’s critical for academic success and beyond. We will discuss when students can start developing this ability and how it evolves from elementary through high school, as well as practical strategies kids can use to speak up in the classroom even when they feel different from their peers. We also tackle the parent perspective, how to build your child’s confidence at home without overstepping, and how to partner with teachers to create a safe environment for self-advocacy. So, whether you’re a parent, educator, or an advocate, we think you’ll walk away with actionable strategies to help every learner stand up for themselves.​

Welcome Dr. Lin and Dr. Hsu. So glad that you’re able to join us today. Before we get into the content of our conversation today, why don’t you take a minute to tell our listeners a little bit more about you.

Yi-Hua Lin, PsyD: My name is Dr. Yi-Hua Lin. I’m a licensed clinical psychologist. I provide individual therapy to teens experiencing depression, anxiety, and trauma related symptoms, and I also do evaluations. I’m really excited to talk about how we can empower kids to advocate for themselves because it’s a skill that can really help them build confidence and achieve their goals.

Emily Hsu, PhD: Hi, I am Dr. Emily Hsu. I am a adult psychologist, and so I bring a unique perspective to CHC in that I provide parent coaching. I also do evaluations for children and adolescents, six plus, and I’m also very excited about this topic because part of the things I do in parent coaching is helping parents advocate for their children and helping them understand some of their child’s areas of challenge – the things that are a little bit more difficult, and also their areas of strength to help their children advocate and then also help their children once they get older know how to advocate. So, I’m really excited to facilitate this conversation because I think it’s important to know how to advocate for yourself.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah, and I’m so glad that both of you bring a little different perspective. Dr. Hsu as you just noted, making sure that parents know how to advocate for their kids. And then Dr. Lin helping kids themselves advocate. As we get into the conversation, let’s start with what does self-advocacy really mean for students, especially students with learning differences? And to our listeners, we may be talking about learning differences. We might also say LD; it means the same thing for this conversation.

Yi-Hua Lin, PsyD: I think self-advocacy means more than just asking for help. I think it’s being able to recognize what kind of help they need and why it works for them to get their students to really need to understand their own learning profile, meaning what their strengths are, what their challenges are, and what strategies actually help them manage those challenges. Once they have that self-awareness, they can then communicate their needs more clearly to their parents and teachers and adults in their lives.

Emily Hsu, PhD: Yeah, I would agree. I think it’s also knowing how to explain an area of challenge to someone else, and then also the steps that are involved. Once you’ve recognized, oh, this is an area of challenge, what are the next steps? Like, what do I need to do with that information? So, how to have a conversation with, for example, a teacher, and then in the future a boss, a colleague, and then how do you want to have that conversation? Do you want to write an email? Do you want to have a verbal conversation? Do we need to set up a meeting? And then it’s also what accommodations are you requesting if you’ve recognized, oh, I’m having challenges in this area, and then what they would look like in the classroom and in the future in a work environment.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah, it’s so important. I think we tend to jump right to self-advocacy, but the really important piece of that is that self-awareness and understanding what my strengths and challenges are and how to make others aware of that. And it seems like such a critical skill for all of life. I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that, why it’s such a critical skill not just for academic learning, but also life in general.

Yi-Hua Lin, PsyD: Yeah. Yeah, so, without those critical skills a lot of students end up struggling silently and then they can fall behind, sort of like snowball into later on in life. Kids with learning differences often don’t want to stand out or they feel anxious, or they sometimes just don’t even know how to ask for help, like what to say. When a teen can speak up for themselves and say what they need, it not only helps them do better in school, it also helps them build confidence in a sense of mastery and it also helps them, gives a skill that they can use for the rest of their lives, like Dr. Hsu was mentioning, not just with teachers, but later on with bosses, with professors, different people, as they grow older.

Cindy Lopez: So, when can students or kids start building these self-advocacy skills and how can parents / caregivers teach them how to do this? Especially, as we think about kids developmentally – that probably looks different for young children than for teens. So, when are kids ready to start thinking about self-advocacy and really using some of those strategies?

Emily Hsu, PhD: I think you can start at a pretty young age. Because I think about each of the grades, I’m going to start with kindergarten because typically, you know, our children are more verbal at that age through the fourth grade. I’m just going to start with that period to say that, yeah, you could start as early as kindergarten where this is a time where you are figuring out, especially in kindergarten, like what are some strengths, what are some things that I’m good at? Some things that may be it’s a little bit harder for me. I know with some of my goddaughters for example, like when they were transitioning from kindergarten to the first grade, pretty big transition, their teachers would talk with parents about like, oh, so and so’s, I’ve noticed that when it comes to some of their fine motor skills in terms of like cutting, maybe that’s something that could be worked on, and then also having that kind of a conversation with their child.

And so I think working with younger students and identifying like what are some things that you know come a little bit easier to you. What would you say is something that you feel like you got, and what are some things that you’ve noticed a little bit more difficult for you? I think that might be kind of helpful and, oh, and when something’s difficult for you, like cutting a circle, what do you do? And so I think it’s identifying strengths, weaknesses, and then strategies on help. I think fostering that at a young age, and I’ve named kindergarten through the fourth grade, I think can be particularly helpful to start, if we were to look at maybe some of the grades and some of the areas in which we are looking at what are some things that we are hoping that age range, that grade range can do.

I’m also thinking about starting conversations through literature. Reading is really important. I think about how also my goddaughter actually happens to love reading and literature can also be a really great way to get younger children thinking about differences. There’s a lot of books out there about children who are different, how they learn differently. And so learning about, oh, not even a learning difference, but also a challenge because a lot of the stories that we have our children read, there typically is something that person is going through. So, not only can you foster some of those problem solving skills, but you can also foster empathy, acknowledgement of, oh, and then having a discussion, whether it’s through literature, a movie. I know some of my parents, what they like to do is they also like to watch a movie and talk about what did you learn? How did that feel for you? So, I think that you can teach these things throughout the years.

Cindy Lopez: Dr. Hsu, thank you for talking so clearly about that young child range and what can be done at that age and bringing literature into it. It seems like a really great place to start because you do spend so much time reading with your young child and reading to your young child, and I am also mindful of students who, even young children who have like more energy than they can kind of handle. And I think that brings a different aspect into learning and into the classroom, especially as they are kindergarten, first grade, asked to like really live and do their work in this more structured environment.

And I was thinking about a kindergartner that I know recently, and she just woke up thinking it was Saturday one day when it was a school day, I don’t remember the day, but she woke up thinking it was Saturday and for the whole day just set her off. And she did say that to her teacher. She said, “I woke up today thinking it was Saturday.” And that just colored her whole perspective for that day and for her ability to just say that to her teacher was important. So, again it brings back to me that whole piece of self-awareness and what’s going on with yourself and thinking, oh my goodness, you know, they’re not going to be able to use these words like frustrated, but I’m mad or whatever. I think giving them some language also helps them be able to advocate for themselves too.

As we think about advocating, what are some concrete, practical strategies that kids can use to speak up about their needs in the classroom, especially when they might feel embarrassed about doing that or they don’t want to stand out from their peers?

Yi-Hua Lin, PsyD: Yeah, I totally get this. Many students don’t want to stand out or draw extra attention to themselves. Some of the strategies I like to give my clients, one of them is to write out a script so they know what to say. So, having the words already figured out can really reduce a lot of the anxiety. So, something like, “I’m having trouble figuring out how to get this essay started. In the past, seeing an example with this essay structure has helped. Can I look at an example?”

Another strategy could be helping the student identify a good time to talk to the teacher. So, approaching a teacher after class or sending an email can feel a lot less intimidating than raising their hand during a lesson. Students often feel more comfortable when they can plan out the timing ahead of time. I think something that we can have adults do with their teens as well, older children as well, is role playing that conversation. So, practicing ahead of time, what really helps build confidence. You can also help them identify what worries they have – like what if the teacher says no to giving me an extension and come up with how to respond to that and what to say next. 

And I think lastly, just normalizing needing help, especially when there’s already that fear or that feeling of like shame or embarrassment, normalizing and validating them could be really effective. Pretty much everyone needs support in some area, and reminding students of this can help reduce the shame or embarrassment that may be getting in the way of them asking for help.

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Cindy Lopez: So, going back to that self-awareness piece, how can we teach students to recognize when they need help versus when they should just keep on trying it on their own? I think that’s something that kids struggle with and part of it is related back to what you just said, Dr. Lin, which is, they don’t want to feel different or stand out, but I’m just wondering if you have thoughts about helping them recognize when they really need help.

Yi-Hua Lin, PsyD: Yeah, it can definitely be a challenge. I know a lot of caregivers don’t want to see their teens or children struggle in general. So, helping or teaching our teens and kids to decide that is going to be really important because it helps them figure out if they’re facing a challenge they can eventually work through, or if they’re actually stuck and need more support. So, something that I like to have our teens do is to ask themselves, “Do I understand the instructions and what’s being asked? Have I tried at least one strategy to solve this? And am I making any progress even though I’m putting in so, so much effort?” If they’ve given it a good try and still can’t move forward, that’s usually a good sign that it’s time to ask for help. But if they’re making slow, steady progress, maybe taking them a little longer, but still able to do it on their own, then it’s probably worth pushing through a little bit more.

Cindy Lopez: And I think that for educators who might be listening to this, or parents who might be listening to this, it’s okay to let them work at their own pace and to encourage them to speak to their teacher about that. “I have been working hard on this for a half an hour last night and this is where I am, is this okay? I plan to work again tonight.” You know, just the idea that each student is different, and they’re going to come to an assignment with their own set of skills, with their own set of predisposition, so to speak. And teachers who can be flexible with that really can make a difference for students. And I think that as you just noted, Dr. Lin, like the persisting on their own and making progress on their own is self-affirming. And that is something that we want for our kids too. And we want them to build greater independence as well. I’m wondering what the balance is between self-advocacy and building independence. How are those related?

Yi-Hua Lin, PsyD: Right. Yeah. Well, I think self-advocacy is a key building block of independence. When students learn how to clearly express their needs and ask for the right support, keep track of what they’re doing and make adjustments, they become more independent. The more they speak up for themselves, the less they have to rely on adults to step in and fix things. So, our goal as adults isn’t to cut off support, it’s to help them learn how to find and use that support on their own.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah, that’s great. I like that idea of it’s not cutting off support. It’s like, how can I help them do what they need to do and build up their own confidence. And we’ve been focused a little bit on teacher and school settings. I’m wondering about switching to the home setting. What can parents do at home to build their child’s confidence and skills and self-advocacy without doing too much, without advocating for them?

Emily Hsu, PhD: I think it’s a great question, and I think balance is always something that we are trying to figure out what that looks like. You know, as we meet different milestones in life, one of the milestones is how parents can encourage children to advocate for themselves. We know for younger students, typically, you know, you talk with your child’s teacher. You let them know this is so and so, this is what they like. This is something that they don’t like. You can make them aware of any challenges the child might be having when they’re younger, when they don’t necessarily have the words to recognize, which is why I always tell parents, because I get this question, when should we start talking about mental health? I say as soon as possible. I say you are your child’s model for all types of relationships – your relationship with yourself, your relationship with others, your relationship with your partner, your relationship with your grandparents, all of that. That is a model for how to advocate, set boundaries for your children. So, I say start early. Start using words. Have check-ins. I have a check-in with my family where I encourage them before they leave school or whenever it makes sense for the family, because I want them to be able to be successful is, what’s one thing we’re looking forward to and what’s one thing we’re not. And then you check in on that right after the day is over. So, I often encourage that. So, that’s kind of like what’s happening in the background. But we know for younger students, prior to the fifth and sixth grade, typically children are being advocated for, if we’re talking about IEPs, individual education programs and 504 plans, typically that’s done with the parents.

However, we also know that as early as a fifth and sixth grade, this is when students can begin attending their own IEP meeting to start advocating for themselves, which is why teaching these advocacy skills are so important to be like, if the child is, for example, in the third grade, be like, “Hey, you know like I’m going to be talking to your teacher about, X, Y, and Z. What do you think? Do you think this is an area in which you’ve noticed is a little bit more difficult for you?” Getting their input, like you can get it. I mean, we know that a child who is fully verbal by the age of three, they can tell you everything that’s on their mind. And so, I would say even for, you know, like three year olds, typically, like we’re doing the advocacy. Children at the age of three even have a lot of opinions. And so I think involving them throughout the process, checking with them and letting them know, for example, if you’re having a challenge, how is it feeling? Like teaching them mindfulness in your mind – like, what are the emotions, whether we do like an emotion wheel, how’s it feeling in your body? And then what do you do with that, right? I think of that as kind of like a background for advocating for what’s going on here so that you can work with your emotions, work with what you’ve got to be able to do your best, whether that’s at school, especially for that example you provided, Cindy, about the girl who thought it was Saturday. She told the teacher, “I thought today was Saturday.” And I think a teacher knowing that and how she’s probably adjusting, I think can be helpful as well, but we need to teach children the words of, “Oh, something is different than what I thought it was, or I was expecting this.” So, I think starting those kinds of conversations once your child starts attending like daycares, anything where there’s like a lot of different individuals, just like we prepare kids for when they go out, I think can be helpful.

Cindy Lopez: You mentioned the emotion wheel. For our listeners, you can find that if you just Google emotion wheel. But that’s basically a wheel that identifies ways to say different kinds of emotions. You might be mad, but you might be frustrated or you might be some other kinds of words that give students more emotional vocabulary, especially for students who kind of shut down and / or meltdown. It’s good for them to have those words and to teach them those words and those emotion wheels can be helpful.

Dr. Hsu, as we’re talking about parents and we’ve talked about teachers, I am wondering like how the teachers and parents can come together and partner with each other to create an environment where their child feels safe advocating for themselves and feels empowered to advocate for themselves.

Emily Hsu, PhD: For sure. I know some of the parents I work with worry about bothering the teachers and teachers are busy. Everyone’s busy, right? I think communication is important as well and making sure that we are on the same page as we can be. And so I think, letting parents know like, hey, it’s actually a patient that Dr. Lin and I share when this individual who’s no longer this young, went to first grade. The mother gave the teacher a piece of paper and introduced their daughter and was like, this is so and so. And basically I was telling this teacher about what this child likes in the terms of using regulation talk. I thought that was really interesting because it was something that I was like, “Oh, typically when I introduce or have gotten introduced to someone or have seen children introduced, she’s like, oh, this is so and so, you know, so and so this is your teacher,” and it kind of just stops there. And that’s not wrong or anything. Everyone has a different style, but if you know that your child could benefit from not being like grabbed at or thinking they’re being grabbed at, let that teacher know because if there’s anything that can help a really busy teacher who has to manage many kids function a little bit easier and build rapport quicker, I would let that teacher know. And I think gauging it from, “Hey, like, I know you’re really busy, but I have noticed that these strategies work really well with my child,” being open to discussion, “If you have anything that you’ve noticed that might be helpful, please let me know, so that we can work together.” And I think getting that feedback and showing that you’re open to feedback both ways, I think can be helpful to foster an ongoing more positive form of communication between parents whether it’s in person, and as we know during COVID, it was all via email. I feel like emails are also really helpful as well to foster that ongoing communication or just in general be like, “Hey, I’m having some worries.” I always encourage my parents, let them know I’m worried versus so-and-so’s not doing their math homework. And they told me that, you know, blah, blah, blah. Your emotions, your feelings are very valid, and I also think I wonder about saying it in this way, right? Not again because it’s wrong, but because it’s also about how do we communicate in a way so the other person knows that you’re open to feedback.

Cindy Lopez: Yeah, I think communication is so important and as the years that I spent in education as a teacher, that communication between home and school is crucial. And even for educators. I’m sure if you’re an educator listening, you are probably doing this, but when the student is having a really off day just communicating that, like, “I noticed today that Susie was having a really hard time, and I wonder if there’s anything going on that would help me as I support Susie?” So, I think those kinds of things are really important too. And again, helping your child be able to develop that self-awareness so they know what’s going on and how to label it, how to name it, and then prompting them to speak to their teacher. And again, as both Dr. Lin and Dr. Hsu have said, like that role playing, the scripting, all of that can be really helpful, especially for students with learning differences.

Thank you, Dr. Hsu and Dr. Lin for all that you’ve shared with us today. I’m wondering before we wrap up the conversation, if you have a success story or an aha moment that you’ve seen where a student with learning differences, especially has embraced self-advocacy and it’s made a difference for them?

Emily Hsu, PhD: I previously worked with a parent. She came to me for parent coaching, was referred by a nurse practitioner. I worked with this mother for years on the IEP. Our last IEP before we ended our time together, we did six revisions of the IEP. So, there’s a lot of advocacy, and it wouldn’t have been made possible if not for the mother’s level of communication. She worried she was communicating too much. She worried about all the emails she was sending, and I said, “We don’t know how that’s going to be received, but we know at the end of the day that you sent an email, there’s a timestamp. There are words. You can’t argue with words.” And it actually served her very well because she could refer to emails when the school did respond. And I said, you know, I recognize that we’re coming back to them with another revision. They’ve got to pull together the team again. So, it can be a lot for them. And this is us advocating for your child. And I think also the reason why the IEP revision worked out in the end as well as it did was because I think he was 12—he’s no longer 12 now—would  come to the IEP meetings and teachers would say things about, oh, so-and-so’s having a lot of challenges here, but he didn’t do this. And he would be like, “Yes, I did.” And this was a child that no longer wanted to come to therapy two years ago. There was a lot of challenges. He had a one-to-one aide, who was starting to advocate for himself, not just in that meeting, but in all the other meetings. And he would say things like, “No, like this is really hard for me.” And I sat back, I was like, I don’t need to do anything. Mom was like, oh God, I don’t need to say anything either. And I think it’s because we had involved him in the process pretty early. 

And they would often have conversations in the car about things that were happening at school. Who did you talk to? Did you feel you got heard? And so they had a really great relationship, and I think that helped when he started seeing his mom early on because he didn’t first talk, but then he saw some of the work she was doing. And then when a teacher would say something, he’d be like, actually that’s not what’s going on. I think that really helped because the teen stopped and was like, okay. And the mom was like, well, here’s what it is. And so, I felt extremely proud of this mother and son pair because I’d worked with them for years when I used to be able to work through Medi-Cal with parents and teens for a longer period of time. And it really paid off. Yes, it took six revisions, which I don’t think anyone wants to do, but it was important to this 12-year-old. It was important to this mom, and I think that we were able to get the best IEP that we could because of the advocacy that the mom worked so hard for and because she also had a paper trail.

Cindy Lopez: Thank you so much Dr. Hsu, for sharing that story and the power of advocacy, especially working together with parents and the student and around an IEP, which is a really important document for students. So, thank you so much for sharing that. And as we wrap up today, I’m wondering what do you really hope that our listeners hear from you today?

Yi-Hua Lin, PsyD: Yeah, well, I’m really hoping that our listeners learn that it is never too early to start self-advocacy skills. I think building those early on, especially starting elementary school, can be really, really helpful. And helping our children, not just in elementary school, but throughout life. So, as they start progressing, letting them take more ownership so that by the time they get to high school or college, they’re able to advocate for themselves without much parent support. And so that is definitely something I’m hoping what our listeners get out of this.

Emily Hsu, PhD: I’m hoping for a lot of the similar things that Dr. Lin said. I very much agree with what she stated. I really appreciated how Dr. Lin also highlighted the theme of support. I think support is something that everyone needs in different ways, and I understand that advocating for oneself can be hard, right? One can come across as being potentially needy or worried about that. And I also tell individuals we have needs, having needs isn’t necessarily being needy. Maybe how we’re asking could be a little bit different. Doesn’t mean it’s right, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Maybe we need to change how we ask or ask differently, which is why we teach skills. 

And I also think it’s important for parents and our adolescents who may be hearing this to know that there is support, right? If you are struggling with academics, which we know for our adolescents and our children is approximately eight hours a day, and then you got to come home and do homework, that’s stressful, right? And if a teacher says, “Oh, this should take about 15 minutes.” Or you can even ask your teacher like, “Hey, you gave us this reading assignment, like how long should I be expecting to spend on this so I can plan ahead,” or what have you? And the teacher says, “Oh, like maybe about an hour” and it’s taking you three, right? Because we want students to kind of figure out, oh, is it taking me three hours because of X, Y, and Z? What were some things that I noticed, right? Try it for yourself, yes. The first time you try things, it might take a little bit longer, but if that tends to be a pattern, then be curious about what’s leading that to becoming a pattern where you’re continuously taking twice the amount of time, and letting people know, “Hey, this is taking me longer,” so that people can start maybe like flagging that in their mind. And it’s to the idea where, yeah, you’re working your best and maybe we can work a little bit differently so that you’re not spending three hours on math homework or knowing when you’re like, okay, this is me trying, but now I’m starting to feel frustrated, where we talked about the emotion wheel, right? Because we’re all trying to do our best. And we also want to recognize as we’re trying, how are we doing emotionally? Because if we’re starting to not feel great at like the 10, 15 minute mark. Let’s be curious about that.

Cindy Lopez: All really good words. Thank you for sharing Dr. Hsu and Dr. Lin, your expertise and your insights. And for our listeners, if you need some help, CHC is here for you. If you want some parent coaching, if your child needs some therapy or even evaluation, please reach out. You can reach our care team by calling them at 650-688-3625, or you can email them at [email protected]. Thank you so much for joining us today.

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